User talk:Batno mercy/Build:Team - Urgoz Trappers
Rate-a-Build *Tested (favored): *# Over a dozen times beating Urgoz and 2 leet bows later, I'd say it works. :) --Karlos 00:50, 22 July 2006 (CDT) *# Definitely works. --Dirigible 21:32, 22 July 2006 (CDT) *# Awesome build, very effective. — [[User:Rapta|'Rapta']] 19px (talk| ) 21:56, 22 July 2006 (CDT) *#surprised there are only this many votes.--Coloneh RIP 18:53, 26 December 2006 (CST) *Unfavored: Discussion Looks very good. If I get the feeling for PvE again (doing all Kurzick quests*4 was just to much for a PvP centered person like me lol), I'll definitly try to get into such a group. --Xeeron 06:27, 22 July 2006 (CDT) Im thinking this need a nightfall update, mainly putting Light of Deliverance on one or both monks. My alliance always runs with one monk spamming Light of Deliverance and heal party almost the whole run.--Coloneh RIP 18:52, 26 December 2006 (CST) Different approaches to a couple of points Consider this entire post more as an invitation for an open discussion of possible tactics for making an Urgoz run more efficient, and less as criticism towards the team build posted here. Elementalists Glyph of Energy vs Renewal Firstly, the ele build. During those few times we've been in Urgoz together, I did notice you using Glyph of Energy as your elite; found it a curious choice and thus tried running it myself. As far as energy management goes, unsurprisingly, GoE is tremendously effective. Makes you very resilient, even without the help of the BiP necro. But...to be honest, I found it a bit lacking on direct damage output, at least after weeks of using this build: Sometimes, when feeling in an anti-social mood (which happens relatively often...), I'll swap out Res Sig for Breath of Fire. Fire Attunement and Lesser Energy + Rodgort are very decent in keeping your energy bar from plummeting like a rock, and Renewal+MS helps immensely in overpowering those Song Wardens. Exhaustion isn't really a problem unless you're in one of the two exhaustion rooms. *The first one, Room 5, is over before it starts (almost all parties skip the Twisted Bark, which leaves only two groups of wolves to be fought while under exhaustion, the ones next to that lonely Brooding Thorn after the bridge; trapping alone is more than enough to get rid of them.) *The second exhaustion area, Room 7 (wardens room), is where exhaustion REALLY hurts. Glyph of Energy would undoubtly be quite useful here, but... I feel uncomfortable using up my Elite spot for (mostly) only this area's sake, especially when you consider that most of the time you don't spend more than 15-20 minutes here (you might even get lucky and nuke the bark from below!). What I'm trying to argue is that Renewal is probably a better choice than Energy in my opinion, at least for an Urgoz run. Hex Breaker vs Mantra of Resolve Unlike with Glyph of Energy above, I can't say I've tried running Hex Breaker in the Warren, but I do feel that it's probably less than critical. Off the top of my head, the hexes that you'll stumble upon are: *Shameful Fear. Pathetic damage that is nullified with the rate that monks spam Heal Party there. *Impale. If you're caught without PS or Displacement/Shelter on you, Desperate Strike + one swing is going to kill you, regardless of whether Impale is there or not; and if those defensive measures ARE indeed there, then Impale's extra damage is negligible. *Life Siphon. See Shameful Fear. In addition, this is also spammed left and right from the Greater Blood Drinkers, making it impossible to avoid catching this, hex breaker or not. *Icy Veins. This is probably Hex-Breaker worthy, even though in a normal popup group you'll very likely get hexed with it nonetheless; relatively spammable. *Binding Chains. In the Variations section, this is given as the reason why to bring Hex Breaker. Now, leaving aside the fact that you are using a skill slot for one of the shortest areas in the entire run, I do believe that Hex Breaker is superfluous here. Even with Binding Chains on, you are NOT going to die as long as you keep moving (in a direction where there's no exploding plants, of course). Even 10% of your normal speed is more than enough to leave the small area of effect that the explosions have. Mantra of Resolve is much more useful, imho, (probably even more so in the Glyph of Energy build). Interrupts are plenty. Savage Shot is spammed left and right in the first room (Dredges), in rooms 7 and 8 (Wardens), which also have a fun time spamming Cry of Frustration for AoE interruption. While this is probably more of a luxury in the GoR build (MS got interrupted, just wait a few more seconds for GoR to recharge, and try again), it's probably more critical in the GoE one (interrupt, then wait 60 seconds for MS recharge). Ideally, Glyph of Concentration would be perfect, but doesn't synergize well with other glyphs, unfortunately. Res sig Whether I'm running ele, rit, monk, necro or ranger, if I'm leading the party, I suggest the eles not bother bringing a res, (especially so if they're not /Mo or /Rt), when there's other skills which can potentially be more useful for them to bring along, to help things go smoother (Breath of Fire, Incendiary Bonds, Ward of Stability/Against Melee, Death's Charge, Auspicious Incantation, etc). On the other hand, all others DO need to bring a res; monks and rit because they're the most likely to survive, rangers because they're the most suitable to res during battles, and BIP simply because there's not too many other "very important" skills for him to bring. What about replacing one nuker with an mm? The mm equips Rotting Flesh which is pure slaughter to the dredge.--Shade Murtagh 18:33, 31 October 2006 (CST) Rangers EW and QZ Glad that the build offered here has at least two copies of QZ; so many parties bring only one then start yelling at the poor ranger when they don't see it up constantly, forgetting about how little it lasts. It should probably be mentioned somewhere in the article to chain QZs in order to keep one up for as long as EW is working. Now, this is something I'm slightly uncertain about, and would appreciate help from someone more experienced. Wouldn't it be better to not use EW on the BM16 or BM11 rangers, but instead on the Pure Trapper guy? With only 4 points in BM, EW lasts 62 seconds (and recharges in half that, if used after QZ). This results in the lives of QZ and EW being more synchronized (BM3 might be a better sweet spot, even). The way the spirit are layed would go something like this: QZ1 --> EW --> trap trap trap --> QZ2 --> EW (recharged by now) --> trap some more, then pull. This way, EW never outlives QZ, and lasts only for the pre-pull trapping, so as not to mess up the Rit, monks, and nukers. If the group being pulled is small, you only need to lay the spirits once (QZ, EW, trap, pull). If rangers have good communication, you should be able to keep QZ+EW up even during battles. Secondary Profession Probably a bit too obvious, but should probably be mentioned somewhere in the guide. Since the trappers here don't need their secondary profession to anything, /Mo for Rebirth is a very solid choice. (Resolve for the trappers wouldn't work, not with the amount of interruption that they're subject to here; no BIP would be able to keep them energized). Brambles Probably well worth bringing Brambles as well, on one of the rangers. Together with the necro's Well of Suffering this gives some very decent degen. Monks Maybe this section needs a bit more expanding, in the guide. Protective Spirit is really needed on one or two of the monks. A solid choice for one of the other monks would be Healing Seed (very effective against the fire flower attack spam). Extinguish too is probably overkill to run on more than one monk. Also, something that doesn't seem right to me, the suggested monk build in the guide has WoH as the only direct heal. I strongly don't think that will be enough. Something relatively spammable like Orison/Dwayna's/whatever else is also needed. So, while the build suggested has all skills necessary for Urgoz, they probably shouldn't be all on one skillbar. Here's how it could alternatively be structured. Monk 1 Monk 2 Monk 3 Ritualist Possibly Innefective With the nerf on the Ritualis, is this still viable to bring into urgoz? Optional skills Personally I bring Feast of Souls and Vital Weapon in the optional spots. Vital Weapon can be extremely helpful when someone is getting is getting pummeled a lot, and is a nice skill to throw on the puller when he goes out to do his job. Feast of Souls on Union and Displacement can also be extremely useful, healing the entire party for 200hp, if used timely. (With Rit Lord, you can replace the spirits very quickly. Just make sure you keep Shelter separate from Union and Displacement, so you don't kill it together with them). Attribute points Now, something else. I'd personally suggest running two major runes, as opposed to one Superior and one minor. Numbers, taking Shelter as an example: *At 16 Communing and 13 Spawning, the spirit is level 8, and has 319.2 health. Taking 28 damage per hit, the spirit dies in 12 hits. *At 14 Communing and 15 Spawning, the spirit is level 8, and has 336 health. Taking 32 damage per hit, the spirit dies in 11 hits. Yes, the spirit does die in one less hit, but consider this: At 13 Spawning, Rit Lord makes rituals recharge 67% faster. At 15 Spawning, that number is 75%, which means that your Shelter (as well as the other two spirits) will recharge 5 seconds earlier! In my opinion, well worth it. Equipment HRC and HCT on Communing for the build as it is right now is definitely pointless. Binding Rituals aren't spells, and thus not affected by those. With Feast of Souls and Vital Weapon in the two optional slots, I personally use a Spawning Power ceremonial cauldron (HCT+HRT on Spawning Power spells) and a +5 Energy katana from Shichiroji, modded with a +20% enchantment length upgrade (basically, a Totem Axe/Razajan's Fervor equivalent). HCT/HRT on Communing can also be considered, but only in consideration of the two optional slots, and not because of the spirits. Personal questions Turning off fireflowers at the bridge Not sure if you've ever have experienced this, Karlos, but very often there'll be a few people in the party that insist on letting the puller die on the bridge, as supposedly this turns off the fireflowers. This doesn't work, from my experience, fireflowers do keep shooting when the guy is dead. BUT, quite often it does happen that the fireflowers simply stop attacking. Haven't been able to figure out why that happens, though, what causes it. Maybe the puller needs to die in a specific point? Maybe the Wolves need to be killed in a certain fashion/area? I don't know. Earthbind Another tricky one, imho. It makes all knockdowns last at least 3 seconds, which does sound good when you first hear it, but it has other complications. For example, with Earthbind up, the second wave of meteors from Meteor Shower won't result in a KD, so, there'll only be two knockdowns, of 3 second each, (easily tested in a scrimmage match). Is it better to keep them on the ground for a couple of seconds more, or add that extra KD there, for disruption? Also, lets not forget about all the Spike Traps that will be flying around. Without Earthbind, there'll be more disruption, with Earthbind there'll probably be quite a bit of "overlap" on the spike trap effect (one spike trap results in KD, a following meteor shower or other spike trap can't KD that target for 3 seconds; thus you could say that effect is wasted). Any thoughts on whether this is worth bringing or nay? Death's Charge + Recall Ranger or ele with Death's Charge, target that brooding thorn in room 7, pull the Bark to the edge, kill with the help of your friends below, end Recall to go back down. Would shave a considerable amount of time from that room. Making the trip shorter by 20-30 minutes, and saving the team a bunch of potential DP is worth this, imho. Also, this could also be used on the other bark, on the opposite side, to get rid of Weakness (the Earth Wardens spam Stoning, which results in a guaranteed KD with that constant Weakness on). If it's the ranger that brings these, he could also be the main puller. The Energy Drain bark in room 6 Is there really a need to kill this guy? Why not just whack the serpent, and get out of the place ASAP? Yes, the energy drain effect appears in the final room, where Urgoz is, but we can't forget that there it's harmless, since it's only effective on half of the room, the half away from where EoE, monks and BIP will be. Only the runners will feel the energy-drain, which seems completely harmless to me. That's about all I got (for now). Nice job on the guide, by all means. Voting in support of it, but lets see if we can make it more effective. :) Cheers, --Dirigible 21:32, 22 July 2006 (CDT) :Umm, that's a lot to answer to, it looks like its own article. :) :Elementalists: :# GoE: I believe echoing Meteor Shower itself is not that effective in the presence of more than one ele. If this was a 5-man FoW team, then Renewal/Echo would be a must, but when you have 2-3 nukers with MS, repeating Meteor Showers is not that important. I use Meteor Shower in Urgoz a lot differently than I use it in any other place. With the exception of the brushes and the trees, nothing is really severely damaged by MS. The Dredge and the Wardens are pretty resilient. I use MS more to catch a soft target off his feet and deliver a powerful combo with Rodgort's and Fireball. When fighting the Wolves, the traps are really where they get owned, you hardly have time to cast Rodogrt's let alone MS. On the flip side, as you said, I find Glyph of Energy extremely liberating. I can get off MS with 10 energy. :#Hex Breaker: A proverbial life saver for me, and I think even more important for the monks. I have never had a problem with interrupts in the warren. I don't know if you observed how my ele nukes, but I usually am pretty patient and will let others capture the attention of the Savages, and then will step in, lay down my nukes, and pull back for a few, then come back again. I will always use line of sight too. Not to say I never get interrupted, but, again, the presence of 2-3 nukers removes a lot of the stress about "Oh, I must get off this one MS or we're gonna get owned." In any case, I am not saying it does not work, I just don't see it as necessary fo eles to have that build. I have gone with Glyph of Concentration and it's useful, but too costly in terms of energy. :#Overall, I have found that the battles that most need the eles to get their stuff off are the battles against the Wardens. I have always found energy to be the biggest problem in those fight (partially because of E-Surge, partially because of the Monks screaming for energy to keep everyone alive) and I have found the ability to get off a Meteor Shower or Rodgort's with 10 energy to be priceless. :#Res sig: Sorry, no debating that. You can NEVER predict who will be that lone survivor in those incidents. Everyone must carry a res sig. In addition, in critical situation where a monk is down and the party needs a quick res, everyone should be ready with their sigs. :Monks: :#Prot Spirit: And this will probably go for the other points too... You just don't know which monk is gonna get err 7. To have one guy with Prot Spirit and then discover at room 9 that he's the guy you lost at room 4 is just bad planning. Same thing for Extinguish. Yeah, once past the bridge you won't need it, but a lot of points in Urgoz can be made MUCH easier with a specific skill or two versus going with a generic build. :#I didn't put the other healing skills cause people differ over them all the time. Orison vs Ethereal Light vs Healing Whisper vs Breeze, bla bla bla. Whatever the monk likes. :#Dwayan's Kiss is a poor choice since there are very few enchantments going on. Unless the monk knows there will be a lot of Aegis going around, it's not that useful. But hey, if the monk likes Dwayna's Kiss, I don't care. :) :Ritualist: :Agree with everything you said about the equipment... Don't really care about the spirit math :). :Trappers: :It's really a question for a generic trapping article. I tried not to dumb down the guide too much about trapping while I did mention in a few points that they specifically should trap in multiple layers and so forth. I just think a lot of that stuff belongs in a general trapping guide. :Questions: :#Heard the claim and I don't think it's true. There's something that turns them off after "a" death, but not necessarily the puller's death. Two night's ago, the puller died and the flowers kept firing, then the monk who went to res him died and that made them stop. In pervious run, I thought it turned off after the third death. I really don't know what stops it. I do know that they start again after a few minutes. :#Well, Earthbind would be great, if the Pure Trapper has Spike Trap. That would pin down the bad guys in place to take on most of the damage. Some trappers like to bring trapper's focus and what not.. In that case, Earth Bind is not that useful. :#Death's Charge: Umm, why would it make any different for the ele to be up there to damage the thorn? What would be a good idea is if the party damaged the brushes so that they all run off to the Wardens, and then a nuker gets up there and nukes the Bark from the other side to try and push him to the party. Not sure how that would work, I am just hypothizing. :#The guy is right there an easy target, easily destroyable.. Why leave that effect to harm you later on? It does not take 10 seconds to take him out. :--Karlos 23:19, 22 July 2006 (CDT) Length of Farm How long does this take? For the farm, I mean? :If you only do the essentials, 2-3 hours. --Karlos 06:00, 14 January 2007 (CST) BTW it is not a "farm"